Talk:Legend of the Twilight
"Chibi"? Why does everyone keep saying that Shugo and Rena won "chibified" versions of Kite and Blackrose. Where in the actual text does it say "They are chibified"? :My God. Not this shit again. We just got done with this. Here. Read this: Talk:Mistranslations in the .hack series#Formatting hell. Read at own risk. Kulaguy 22:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC) ::Read that one more time. It's not the same problem. The only question this person is asking is how we tell they're shorter than the original Kite and Blackrose, since the entire art style is chibi like that. And umm, I don't have an answer. As far as we know, they could be the same size I think, unless you consider fragment a canonical measure of height... - Kuukai2 23:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC) :::The art style is not chibi. I hate it when people use that excuse. Examples: Balmung, Sanjuro, Kamui, Kazu, Silver Knight, etc. As shown in the anime, Shugo is shorter than Silver Knight, and Kite is about the same size as Silver Knight in the Games. In the manga, Shugo is smaller than Balmung, and Balmung is slightly taller than Kite in the Games. Kulaguy 01:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ::::Though isn't Mireille supposed to be Mistral's exact PC? Why is she so short? - Kuukai2 01:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC) :::::I've got only one explanation for that. It's to show that the avatar is being controlled by different people. In chapter 14, when Mistral and Kazu show up for Balmung, Mistral is slightly taller than Kazu. In chapter 15, when Mireille is with Kazu, Mireille is shown to be almost a head shorter than him. Other than that explanation, I have no other idea. Kulaguy 02:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ::::::So then Rena and Shugo could be shorter simply as a reflection of their personalities? - Kuukai2 03:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC) :::::::Well Shugo's and Rena's case is different in my eyes. I mean, Shugo and Rena's characters are different from Kite's and BlackRose's. Mireille's and Mistral's are the same. The game cannot have Shugo and Rena have the exact same avatar characteristics as Kite and BlackRose since each avatar is supposed to be different. That's why height/weight/color variants exist. I can't explain it real well, but I believe that's why Shugo and Rena's are almost the exact same as Kite and BlackRose, only shorter, because that is the closest Aura can have Shugo and Rena imitate the heroes through the The World's limitations. You can believe either my complicated/technical answer or the metaphorical one. Kulaguy 03:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ::::::::I don't think there's a technical limitation like that. Most of the Crimson Knights have the exact same avatar.... - Kuukai2 03:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC) :::::::::Ah, I had forgotten about that. Well, then your reason works. Kulaguy 04:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ::::::::::okay...so...what you guys are saying doesnt really answer the question. One of you are claiming the differences in the anime but thats not canon to the story. Also, you have not said anything about where it says in the manga that they are chibified. These are all excellent guess, but not from the main source. I mean, i really think that its just the art style because there is a picture of Kite in the game as a background by Rei Isumi (izumi) and it looks chibified and since she does the dot hack manga i assume that they arent suppose to be "chibi" versions. Also, i was under the impression that aura can do anything in the game. I dont recall ever hearing she has limitations such as making a character model look the same. I like most of your arguments but your eyes often lie to you, and i personally dont trust them. Instead we should trust the text. Thats why i believe that shugo's bracelet is kite's because the manga refers to it as "kite's bracelet" and that the changes are made so that a) they dont have draw shugo fighting the moster to protect break it and b) there are no data bugs. Esp. since in Sign the gaurdian had a similar looking thing inside of it and in GIFT kite's bracelet was a lugnut. So...yeah dont speculate and assume things, just use the text. It our friend and really only reliable source other than the origianl japanese text. :::::::::::LOL Stop parading around your "Stop making assumptions" arguement. I have clearly pointed out YOUR assumptions, YOUR contradictions, and YOUR hypocrisy. Add to the fact Shugo's Bracelet is not Kite's. The only reason they call it Kite's Bracelet is because Kite is the one famous for using it. If The Guardian was known by many players, the Bracelet would be called "The Guardian's Bracelet". Use logic. Shugo has his own Bracelet. He didn't take Kite's Bracelet, as I have interpreted your message. Kulaguy 04:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ::::::::::::Where does it say that?!?! And yes if the guaridan was known by many player perhaps it would be the guardians bracelet but kite was more famous than the guaridan. And you dont know that if it was called "kite's bracelet" because he was famous for using it, unless of course you have text to back up your claim. Use logic, if something seems true is it indeed without a doubt true? :::::::::::::... Urgh, it is so damn annoying arguing with you. .hack is a series that was meant for interpretations. Hell, the creator of Evangelion helped make it. Now next you're gonna say "WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?!" Use freaking logic. Why else would they call it Kite's Bracelet? You tell me not to make assumptions, but my reasoning is better than yours. YOU are saying Aura, for some reason or other, took away Kite's Bracelet and gave it to Shugo, and everyone magically knew it was Kite's Bracelet, even if they didn't know Aura gave it to him. NO WHERE in the .hack series says Aura took away Kite's Bracelet and gave it to Shugo. NO WHERE in the .hack series even supports that claim. Mine uses logic. People know Kite as the person who had a Bracelet. When someone else has a Bracelet with the same abilities, naturally they'd say it's Kite because it has the same abilities, and Kite was the first one they knew that had one. Plus, add to the fact Kite's couldn't be seen while Shugo's could shows that Kite's and Shugo's would be different. Kulaguy 05:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC) ::::::::::::::Umm, Dot hacker, you might not have noticed, but when I left the state of the argument was essentially "they're shorter because of artistic license reflecting their personalities" (based on the Mireille + Crimson Knight examples). They may or may not actually be shorter. I was pretty sure Kulaguy agreed that this point was sort of unclear, so I don't see (seriously, I can't figure it out from the text above) what we're arguing about... - Kuukai2 06:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC) Arbitrary separator of bracelet discussion Well, first off, we are arguing about the bracelet that shugo has and if its kite's original or not. So firsta quick english lesson. An "'s" is used for possessive nouns. "Kite" + "'s" = Something belonging to Kite. Also i think that if it had the same abilities but was not the same one, a normal person would say "so, this is a bracelet that was like Kite's" not "this is kite's braclet." Also Balmung says in volume 1 login 2 "So that's the one. Kite's bracelet!!" One being singular. And he knew it since he had seen Kite use it. - User:Dot hacker :First, please sign your talk posts by typing 4 ~'s at the end. Next, LotTB wasn't written in English, and Tokyopop is pretty far from perfect. And even in English, "Kite's Bracelet" could easily be like "Ockham's Razor": not every occurrence of it is necessarily his (I'm particularly fond of the irony of this example ^^). And as for Balmung, in the Japanese version you get the impression that he's suspicious of the bracelet, and then when he data drain he's like "I knew it! It is Kite's bracelet!" The fact that he didn't know until Shugo used it proves that it doesn't "look" the same, and in fact the fact that he noticed the bracelet before he used it proves so even more... - Kuukai2 10:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC) ::Also in the character intros on page 18, it says Aura gives him "the" (singular) "Twilight Bracelet". Shugo also says "So this used to be kite's bracelet, huh?" not "this is a bracelet like kite's huh?" No, it USED to be kite's as in once was and now isnt. - User:Dot hacker :::Page numbers are different in the Japanese version, is that the bio page where Ouka was "Orca"? If so, Shugo's bio just says that he got "a 'bracelet'", Kite isn't even mentioned. What page is the Shugo quote on? More importantly, is Shugo psychic? How would he know something without it being told to him by someone else? - Kuukai2 10:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC) ::::Er, dot hacker, an S is not for possesive nouns. It makes it plural. An "'S" makes it possesive. "Kite" + "S" makes it Kites. If you are going to talk like that, do it right. Please. PKKnoHaseo-san 15:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC) :::::Are you stupid!?!?!?! Have you been on the internet so long that you have forgotten the english language. By your logic, that means Kite's bracelet is the bracelet of kites which is different than kite's bracelet meaning the bracelet belonging to kite. You might not see it, but in my post it is 's as in apostrophe + s. S by itself is plural but an apostrophe means possessive. Such as well..."kite's bracelet". How do you make nouns possessive hmmm? Add -ed at the end? Add -ing? No, a person who know's english uses -'s. So Haseo if you're going to talk like that make sure you read the entire post first please or not fail an english class. :::::Now that im done with that, time to answer a person who seems to know what they are talking about. Well, im am trying to get the japanese version of the volume 1 and i know that tokyopop's translation isnt the best, but i dont think they could get "kite" mixed up with "shugo". In the intro's (yes where ouka is mistrans. as orca) they dont say "kite's bracelet" but the "twilight bracelet" im not sure if that matters since i dont have the japanese version but it could. As for Balmung and the bracelet looking different, isnt it true that Maha, Mia, and Macha are all teh same being but with different appearances and abilites? Yes, Kite's bracelet could possibly like "occum's razor" with the only difference being the bracelet is tangible while occum's razor isnt. Another is that we have never seen another twilight bracelet and thus kite's may be the only one. That is a possibility to Balmung needing to know that the bracelet is kite's. Balmung also yell's out that it is kite's bracelet on page 60 of the english version (curse you tokyopop for not numbering your pages!!!!)So Shugo hears from Balmung that it is kite's since he says that bracelet used to be kite's on page 71 of the english version. -dot hacker ::::::Only one bracelet? That's where you're wrong. The bracelet Kite lost during the battle against Cubia and the bracelet he received from the Book of Twilight ~ Daybreak are different. And yes, Balmung does say "Kite's Bracelet" but that doesn't necessarily mean it's literally the exact same bracelet. Balmung couldn't very well say "that's a bracelet with the same capabilities as Kite's!" in the heat of battle. Besides, it's not like Balmung is an expert on the bracelet in the first place. He knows of the bracelet due to his experiences with Kite, and upon seeing the Data Drain technique, that's the only way he can identify it - as the same bracelet Kite used.--OtakuD50 22:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC) :::::::"Jacob's Ladder" then. And OtakuD50 is right, not only was there more than one bracelet belonging to Kite to begin with, but the number of twilight bracelets out there is quite possibly huge. Every single Guardian has one... Also, the original doesn't number pages very much either, and the page numbers are different from the US one anyway. Could you just say "X pages from the start of login Y"? I know where the Balmung thing is, but just for future refernece. Thanks ^^ Also, we're not really saying it's not Kite's bracelet, and we're not saying that it is. But it does have a different form, so we have a small section about that form, without talking about it's relationship with the original... So what's swrong with our articles, exactly? - Kuukai2 22:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC) :::::::I totally forgot why anyone here is even arguing about teh bracelet. It started off with "Shugo's player model is nota chibi version of Kite's" and then it kinda swerved away. Anyway though, this is really fun so... :::::::If you're going to replace "occum's razor" with anything than that changes it since "occum's razor" is not literally a razor. If we replace it with "jacob's ladder" then it turns back into "the bracelet actually being Kite's." Yes there are many and probably should have been called the "Twilight Bracelet" Aura says "take back the bracelet" of page 1 of login 2 so that means not a new bracelet. Also, they could be referring to Kite's new bracelet, the one he gets from Book of the Twilight-Dawn, since it is Kite's bracelet's, although not his first. Also, we don't much about what happened between Balmung and Kite during the four year hiatus so he may have become an expert. User:dot hacker :::::::We can't seriously take a single line translated by Tokyopop to be proof that it is the exact same bracelet. Things are lost and gained in translation all the time. The original Japanese line could have been "receive" but translated as "take back." Besides, why would she say "take back" to a person that never had the bracelet in the past? Judging by the rest of the dialogue, she certainly isn't talking to the avatar.--OtakuD50 23:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC) ::::::::Umm, you know what Jacob's ladder is, right? They sell them in stores. There's more than one in existence. I have one, and I guarantee there are like thousands of other people who aren't Jacob who have one. Mine isn't "Kuukai's ladder" though. You could just as easily sell "Kite's bracelet"... And nope, that scene says nothing about "giving back" the bracelet. Aura says: "Shugo, don't forget. You are the one who will continue the .hackers legend. The hero of the bracelet, sought after by the 'world.'" - Kuukai2 23:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC) :::::::::Kuukai, what's your source? Mine is the first Tokyopop release, and the lines are: "Do not forget. You are the heir to the dot hackers legend! You must continue the quest that they began! Take back the bracelet -- the sacred treasure sought by all." I should note that Aura, with a serious face like that, should NOT be using exclamation marks.--OtakuD50 00:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC) :::::::::I'm using the original Japanese Vol. 1. The first two sentences of yours are right more or less, but the rest is wrong... ”世界”に求められた腕輪の勇者 could mean that last sentence if mistranslated, but they purposely put 腕輪の勇者 all on one line, so it would be read as one noun... "World" is put in quotes, and is the abstract notion of The World, but they mistranslate it as "all" (i.e. "everyone in the whole wide world"), which is just plain wrong. - Kuukai2 00:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC) ::::::::::Dot hacker, you are acting like a jerk. I missed ONE ', and you act like I offended you deeply. IT WAS A MISTAKE! SORRY! And this really isn't that big of a deal. Most of these issues are from the mistranslations by TokyoPop. It doesn't look like Kite's bracelet, and can be seen. Then again, in Tokyopop's AB volume one, Kite's can be seen by BlackRose even when they aren't in Chosen Hopeless Nothingness. So, things aren't black and white. Let's end this arguement before it becomes even more hostile than it is now. PKKnoHaseo-san 02:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC) :::::::::::I'm a jerk, jeez and i took all the shit from Kulaguy or whatever his name is. I'm just saying give me the benefit of the doubt and dont assume one thing without thinking of multiple possibiites, as i've said before: "Your eyes will lie to you" and "Trust only what the text says" and there you go, you saw something different than what is there and thus it came out different than what it is, and you didnt trust the text with the same result. So there, that shows why I only believe what the text tells me. :::::::::::Also, okay Kuukai2, i thought you were referring to just anyold Jacob and his ladder. But you could call it "Kuukai's ladder" since you own it. They way it is used in "jacob's ladder" Jacob may be its manufacture and thus put his name on it, but by that sense of the "-'s" then that means "Kite" is the creator of the bracelet, which we all know he is not. It should be called "Aura's bracelet" but i wished they just refer to it as the twilight bracelet the entire way through, since it is a twilight bracelet generally the same as what Kite had, the phases, and even Tri-edge. And there are any number of possibilities of why it looks different. Some including: :::::::::::1)The game wasnt done yet when the manga began its production, and she didnt know what happened to Kite's bracelet in the end before she gave it yo him. :::::::::::2)She wanted characters to see it so they could interact with it better, or make it easier to interact with. :::::::::::The list could go on forever so i'll stop. I just want people to stop saying what they see with their eyes is true and start reading the text and trusting that instead. Okay, I mean also look at from a perspective that they are all sepertate from each other. I had watched .hack//sign first then read the manga, the bought a ps2 just to play the games. The gaurdian had something that looked like "Kite's bracelet" from LotT so i figured there was only one bracelet. Then when i played the games i was really surprised to see it invisible and thus thought maybe it was a capabilities thing which is why it was invisible. The phases werent even mentioned in the manga and i missed seeing the episode with Skeith in it. :::::::::::That was much longer than what i wanted to type but here it is...sorry. So, yeah I'm dont as long as the stuff we dont know for sure is passed off is facts. Just put "some think" in front of stuff like that and I'll be fine. I promise. User:dot hacker ::::::::::::Do you know why we're being so mean to you? Because you're being so damn asinine. "ZOMG! THE TEXT DOESN'T SAY IT SO IT ISN'T TRUE!!" As I have said several times before, it is never said in SIGN that Ryo Sakuma supports Ann Shoji but it points heavily to that. Hell, it is NEVER said that Maha was Mia, but they were obviously the same. :::::::::::::"1)The game wasnt done yet when the manga began its production, and she didnt know what happened to Kite's bracelet in the end before she gave it yo him. ''" ::::::::::::And you would know this how? Stop making so many assumptions. There is no proof whatsoever that they didn't know what would happen to the Bracelet. Hell, while Quarantine was being made, they already had .hack//G.U. in the works. I believe A-Kichi wondered what The World would be like in 7 years. You actually believe they'd start planning the sequel without even planning what the hell would happen to the Bracelet in the current series? :::::::::::::"''2)She wanted characters to see it so they could interact with it better, or make it easier to interact with." ::::::::::::And why would that be a good thing? They didn't do that in the Games. Why start during Udeden. All the people that could see it would go "ZOMG! The Bracelet!" Is that the interaction you're talking about? At least when Mia sees the Bracelet, it's relevant to the story. :::::::::::::"''The list could go on forever so i'll stop. I just want people to stop saying what they see with their eyes is true and start reading the text and trusting that instead. Okay, I mean also look at from a perspective that they are all sepertate from each other. I had watched .hack//sign first then read the manga, the bought a ps2 just to play the games. The gaurdian had something that looked like "Kite's bracelet" from LotT so i figured there was only one bracelet. Then when i played the games i was really surprised to see it invisible and thus thought maybe it was a capabilities thing which is why it was invisible. The phases werent even mentioned in the manga and i missed seeing the episode with Skeith in it. ''" ::::::::::::The list could go on forever? Please tell me 3 more from that list. I still find it annoying you cannot accept the idea that there could be MORE THAN ONE Bracelet. The World would not end if there was more than one Bracelet. Hell, look in the Games. Remember the areas with The Guardians? Yeah, there were multiple The Guardians, meaning multiple Bracelets. Kulaguy 05:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC) Let's Meet Offline I thought that the "Hotaru is male" thing was just a mistranslation. Does it actually say that she is a boy? :Well the main thing about Hotaru being a boy is that she was in the boy's bathroom. Perhaps it was a mistranslation, but it doesn't really matter since any info in the Udeden anime is non-canon. Kulaguy 22:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC) Rena Special Pack What the heck is Rena Special Pack? :http://cgi.neo-prosperity.net/dothacker/Media/Data/NA/renaspc1.jpg :That's the Rena Special Pack. Kulaguy 02:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC) ::Whats's in it? I mean what extras? :::It's a special manga for Udeden. IIRC, it also includes .hack//Rumor. Kulaguy 02:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)